Thoughts on life, love and faith by Plasticmind.

27 November 20061. LaRosa Johnson:

it's interesting that you ask this question. they were discussing this same question at one of the message boards i frequent.

i still don't have an answer to this question, but even from looking at the Bible it would appear that in some situations it is okay to lie (i.e. Rahab). for me personally, it's a tough one and i know i'd probably lie when put in the right situation... i.e. my family and i are in danger, and the only way to keep them safe & spare their lives is to lie, then i'd do it in a heartbeat.

it does make you want to go back and really examine things though, especially the commandments of the old testament. it says to not bear false witness (and i think we simply that with the word "lying"), but what does that really mean? i dunno, it's 5:45am and my brain isn't on all cylinders yet (haven't had breakfast & oj yet).

maybe someone else can finish where i left off...

27 November 20062. Augustus Finknottle:

Well, I'm lying right now, so I guess that tells you how I feel.

Actually, (which means that the following is not a lie) I had an acquaintance a few years ago who had spent several years of research trying to prove that all of the stories in Jesus' parables were really historical events, since Jesus would never lie. Somehow he made the leap that talking about a hypothetical or fictional situation was equal to lying. Consequently, he couldn't tell a joke...well, he didn't have a sense of humor either, but his scruples didn't help.

27 November 20063. Susan Nicholson:

Well, permit me to add something here....We were recently in a situation where lying would have been "world view" a good idea, permitted, recommended, etc. Lying would have implied and certianly notified God that He was not in control of the situation and that me, mortal being a vast knowledge and CONTROL, needed to manipulate the situation in order for God's will to be done and not thwarted. No, lying is us as mortals believeing that God is not soveriegn enough to protect, control, intervene, and otherwise be God. If God puts you in a situation that may be dangerous, scary, painful, unfair, persecuted....trust God that He is still on the throne and in control of your life. God only lists 6, yea 7 items in the whole of Scripture that are an ABOMINATION....lying tongue in one of them--the rest of the items HE, GOD OF GOD, MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, well, He just HATES those. Should we lie in certain cirmstances---Yes, if you have decided that God is no longer on the throne, He is NOT the Lord of your life and cannot be allowed to be God. Do you trust Him in the scary, dangerous, painful, and personal times in your life? Then, trust that He is GOD.
Example from LaRosa...Do you believe that if Rahab didn't lie that God's will would have been thrown of course and that God would have lost control of His will if Rahab had told the truth. I think that may be just an example that God's will is done in the life of a harlot just as easily as in the life of a believer--She was prone to lying before God's situation arrived...Maybe that is why she lied and God didn't judge her immediatly for it...Thank God He holds His hand of judgement for all of us and uses us even when we cannot live without sin (ie, lying)..

So, for what its worth....Susan

27 November 20064. ren:

The Hebrew midwives lied to Pharoah.

Ex 1
18So the king of Egypt called the midwives and said to them, "Why have you done this, and let the male children live?" 19The midwives said to Pharaoh, "Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women, for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them." 20So God dealt well with the midwives. And the people multiplied and grew very strong. 21And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families.

Not only did they lie to Pharoah, the Bible describes it as "[they] feared God." As far as Rahab, perhaps she was "prone to lying," and so God let is slide; however, I don't see that He "didn't judge her immediately," I see that God blessed her by preserving her's and her family's lives as well as incorporating them into Israel. I'm not advocating lying--I try to avoid it as much as I can--but I do think there are contexts when it wouldn't be wrong. Or perhaps not as wrong as in other contexts. And I must proffer those that lied to protect Jews during the Holocaust. Where is the line between blessing Israel and avoiding lying; between protecting life from evil and believing that holiness requires absolute truth at all times? I'd have to say in that case, just as in the case of the Hebrew midwives, that life takes precedence over immediate honesty. In that instance, God is using you to work His will. He used Rahab to work His will. Would He have preserved the situation had Rahab not lied? Probably. But she would have been guilty of betrayal. She would have turned her back on God's people. That would have been immoral, I think. Also (and this a grammatical thing), "lying" suggests something continuous. Not a single lie is a situation, but a lifestyle of lying. Now I sound like I'm trying to justify all little lies. I'm not, really, I just have to express where I am and what I see that verse as saying since it was brought up. I don't know if there are any simple or easy answers here, but I do think that both Rahab and the midwives are evidence that not every lie in every situation is immoral.

LJ, my impression of "bearing false witness" is more than just a random lie. It carries the implication of swearing to a lie. In fact, swearing to a lie in order to impugn and destroy someone else. Like a witness in a court.

27 November 20065. filosofo:

When we decide that lying is our moral responsibility based solely on our individual judgment of a particular situation . . .

Aren't you attacking a straw man? In the situations I've seen that people mention as ones in which it's appropriate to lie, including the ones you mention, the decision is not "based solely" on one's "individual judgment."

Take the classic example of lying to the Nazis at the door about the existence of the Jews hiding in one's home. Those of us who defend lying in such a situation might refer to the Nazis' annulled right to the information, or to the legitimacy of deception in war, or to our greater obligation to preserve innocent lives than to give to the truth to evil men.

Each of those justifications--whether one finds them convincing or not--is not based "solely" on one's individual judgment but instead on larger, external principles.

27 November 20066. filosofo:

Hmm. It says "blockquote" is a permitted tag, and it showed up in the JavaScript preview, but it was stripped from my comment.

27 November 20067. Marlo:

My brother and I had this discussion over the holidays- but we were applying it to stealing. -Like- should I really be taking my own candy into the movies, because isn't that technically stealing from the movie theatre? But what if the owner of the movie store tells you he doesn't mind if you bring your own candy in? What then?

28 November 20068. Jeremy Oestreicher:

Okay, let me put my two cents in...Anyone will admit that God would never lie, correct? We also know that anything that falls short of God's character is a sign of our sin nature (and possibly a sin). Therefore we can obviously conclude that lying, in any instance, is at best a sign of our sin nature.

Also, the verses that were used here were a little underthought. While God may have dealt well with the midwives, the verse does not read that God rewarded them for it.
Secondly, how do you even know this is a lie? The Bible never says that.

28 November 20069. crystal:

Tim got himself into trouble while discussing this issue in his psychology class. He was teaching the university's accepted stand, but a parent was pretty upset about it. I can't remember exactly what the stand is and all of the justifications, but I think it had something to do with the precedence of protecting life. Also, the Holy Spirit does not convict my conscience when I lie about a surprise birthday party. Although no one usually asks me to since I am a horrible liar.

28 November 200610. ren:

JO, The previous verse says, "17But the midwives feared God and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live," which indicates that they were totally lying when they spoke to the Pharaoh. The midwives chose let the boys live, not the boys lived by accident.
I would also say that "dealt well" indicates reward. The NASB puts it "God was good to the midwives." And then it says "because" they feared Him, He "gave" them families. That's pretty cause-and-effect and pretty blessing-oriented. But that's just the way I see it.

29 November 200611. Jeremy Oestreicher:

That doesn't at all indicate that they lied. It merely says that they disobeyed Pharaoh. It may have been true that the Isreali women gave birth quickly.

29 November 200612. ren:

JO, I think you're choosing to believe they didn't lie because you don't want them to have lied. The passage, in all the versions I looked at, clearly indicates that the midwives chose to let the babies live. They didn't survive because they were accidentally born before the midwives got there. Perhaps they were born before the midwives got there, but the midwives still chose to let them live and then, at the very least, hid that truth from the Pharoah--which is certainly not honesty.

15 March 200713. Jennifer Drescher:

I know God can't allow lying, because you are hell material by simply lying...How can God condemn anyone to hell if He allows it. In the cases of the midwives and Rahab...yes, they all lied and their sin doesn't seem to be punished...but neither is it rewarded...there is no condoning of the lies. God rewarded the midwives because they feared God and Rehab was rewarded because of her faith and that she received the spies in peace...in neither cases was it stated that they were rewarded for protecting these people with their lies. God doesn't need our protection to carry out His will. Whether they told the truth or lied these people would have still been protected and they would have still been rewarded, God isn't indebted to our efforts to protect what He wants protected. It does get confusing when nothing is said in regards to their lies and only good comes from it...but couldn't the ommission of their punishment be objects of God's grace...that He is gracious and despite their wrong attempts...will still use it to bring Him glory and protect His people.
Due to the question of well, should you tell the truth even if it puts your family in danger. What about those who lied to protect the Jews in the Holocaust...Very interesting questions and my class that I am teaching will be discussing these points. All I have in my head, is that there are rarely two choices in any given situation...either you lie and your family is saved or you tell the truth and your family dies...one doesn't issue the other necessarily. I am reminded of Corrie Ten Boom's sister who never would tell a lie and when she was being questioned at where they were hiding the Jews she told the truth that they were under the table. The soldiers did not believe her and called her a liar a proceeded to search the house...except under the table where the Jews were...they were saved by the truth when a lie seemed the only option.

1 April 200714. marla:

I wonder about God telling Moses and Aaron to tell Pharaoh that the Israelites wanted to sacrifice to God in the wilderness for 3 days, when they were really planning on leaving Egypt for good. I know God is good, right and holy....maybe we just aren't meant to understand this.

21 July 200815. Alin:

You're right..I think. But now I ask you another question. Would you like to be lied?