Thoughts on life, love and faith by Plasticmind.

Opening Statement by Fred Phelps

It is a privilege to appear before this distinguished congregation. The question is, does God hate homosexuals? We lay it down, as an axiom, first off, that the hatred of God is not an evil passion, as it is with men, but is rather an attribute of the almighty that nobody can deny exists, and is talked about in the Scriptures, whereby he has a fixed determination to punish the impenitent wicked forever, in a place called hell.

And I have to tell you, my friends, that it goes way past hate if you credit the Bible with full authority. It goes to abhor, and it goes to despise. Worse forms of the attitudinal approach of almighty God to a certain class of people. In the spring of 1947, as a young ministerial student at Bob Jones in Cleveland, Tennessee, I hitchhiked to Chattanooga to preach my first sermon on the street, and in preparation for it, I memorized the first chapter of Romans, and that's a good place to start.

I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are at Rome also, said the apostle. So I stood there on that street corner in Chattanooga, and said I'm ready to preach the gospel to you who are at Chattanooga also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also the Greek. For therein is revealed the righteousness of God, from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. The word "hold" there means choke it. Throttle it. That string of "fors," that string of subordinating conjunctions, you can't understand anything about this subject until you connect the string of "fors" in Romans, chapter 1. For the wrath of God is revealed, you're not preaching the gospel for the gospel, I'm not ashamed of it, it is the manifestation of the way whereby sinners can be saved, for therein is revealed God Almighty's only plan for salvation from faith to faith, for the just shall live by faith.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed, and the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold, choke the truth, in unrighteousness. So that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shown it unto them, so that they are without excuse. For the invisible things of him, see that string of "fors"? "For the invisible thing of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood." Being understood! Seen and understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. For when they knew God, or at least had that knowledge of him, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. And they worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is God blessed forever: Amen. And for this cause God gave them up.

I'm telling you, my friends, when you start out preaching the gospel at verse 15 and declare you're not ashamed of it and track that right straight down you come to "for this cause God gave them up" to uncleanness, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves, through the lusts of their own minds. And as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them up to vile affections, for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.

Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind. That phrase means they can't think straight about anything. Gave them up. Gave them up. Gave them up. Verse 24, gave them up to uncleanness, God gave them up. Verse 26, gave them up to vile affections, God gave them up. Verse 28, gave them up to a reprobate mind, God gave them up. Verse 30, they are the hated of God. Verse 32, who knowing the judgment of God, that they that commit such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but take pleasure in them that do them.
I'm here to tell you that homosexuals are described there though not named. They're not called sodomites, they're not called anything, but who can deny that that chapter deals, starting with I am preaching the gospel to you, says Paul, at verse 15, and I'm not ashamed of it, for this, for this, for this, for this, right down to verse 32, the last verse, where it says, these creatures that God says he's given up three times--and I'll put it to you. If God almighty says he's given them up, where is the power in the moral universe that can draw them to Christ?

The Lord Jesus says in John 6 that no man can come to me except the Father which sent me draw him. And him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out, but you're not coming to me unless the Father that sent me draw ya'. And I have loved them with an everlasting love, talking of the others, and with an everlasting course of kindness have I drawn them. But these, who, when they had some knowledge of God glorified him not as God, and neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, their foolish hearts were darkened, professing themselves to be wise they became fools, changed the glory of the incorruptible God in an image made like the corruptible man, and birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things, and worshipped and served the creature. They worshipped themselves, my friends, these beasts, whatever you call 'em!

Hated of God, verse 30, points to an extant and well familiar Hebrewism or phrase, look at Proverbs 22:14. Look at that. There it is expressed concisely, that Hebrew phrase of an extant, and everybody knew it. Proverbs 22:14. The mouth of strange women, mouth singular, women plural. The substantial equivalent of the mouth of strange flesh. Jude 7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities round about, giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh.

The mouth, Proverbs 22:14, of strange women, strange flesh, is a deep pit. He that is abhorred of the Lord shall fall therein. Don't tell me that the Bible doesn't teach that there are some people that God hates, and goes way past hate, and goes to abhor. And I'll tell you that this debate was had, in 1520. Martin Luther debating Erasmus of Rotterdam. And it raged and went on with a flourish for almost a year. And Martin Luther's side of it was transcribed and printed, the printing press having fairly recently been discovered. They said, we're going to print all your stuff up, Brother Luther. He said, nothing I've ever written of the hundreds of books, and sermons, and pamphlets, and tracts, deserves to be printed up, deserves to survive to posterity. But The Bondage of the Will deserves to survive to posterity.

And we're going to spend just a little time here today, but I'm telling you that that book has now been reprinted, and you can buy it. That's my part of this debate, what Martin Luther said to Erasmus in 1520, and now it's reprinted. In our mother tongue. Sharp, ringing, clarion, Anglo-Saxon English. Of course God hates people, and not just their sins! And that is a diabolical doctrine of devils, it had no traffic at all 15 to 20 years ago, certainly when I started preaching it had no traffic, this nonsense that God loves the sinner and only hates the sin. And in no other area of life would that silliness be tolerated for a minute. Who does a judge send to the penitentiary? The criminal or the crime? Who does God send to hell? The sinner or just his sins? I tell you, it's a metaphysical impossibility to separate the sin from the sinner.

And the Lord Jesus on an occasion said, I will forewarn you, my friends, whom you should fear. Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear. Fear him who, after he has killed the body, hath power to cast both soul and body into hell. Yea, I say unto you, fear him.
In every high school literature book in Kansas, and probably in Wyoming, and in most states, they've got a little section, and I blew it up to in make the point here today. It's an exemplar of how all the preachers, or virtually all the preachers in this country, preached on this subject in the 1700s and 1800s, and certainly in the 1600s. I've got their sermons, hundreds of them. You can get this sermon off the web, JonathanEdwards.com. Punch in "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." I say, it's set forth in all the high school literature books as an example of Early American Literature and how all the preachers used to preach it in those days. Don't tell me God only hates the sin and not the sinner! There's not one iota of scripture for that.

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire abhors you! Abhors you! And as dreadfully provoked, his wrath toward you burns like fire, he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire. And he has purer eyes than to behold your iniquity with any kind of tolerance. Pluck that down off the web and read that, and your argument is with God almighty, and not with Fred Phelps, if you insist that God doesn't hate people, you insist he doesn't hate people.

I say it's gone way past hate, way past abhors, and into despise. Deuteronomy 32, where Moses is lambasting these people for having become now a perverted, perverse, and crooked people. Having departed from the Lord, having forgotten God. Verse 19: And for this cause God abhorred them. You can't manufacture things like that, those are the solid pronouncements of the word of God almighty. And the metaphors, the similes, and the similitudes. Hosea 12:10 says that the Lord God teaches things through his prophets by similitudes. I've used similitudes, and John Bunyan, as the preface of his classic work, Pilgrim's Progress, plucked that verse forth and says, I am teaching you, in Pilgrim's Progress, by the use of similitudes. And I say to you that the favorite similitude of God almighty and all the book of God is that these sodomites, these homosexuals are dogs. Dogs because they're filthy, dogs because they're disease-ridden, and dogs because they're libidinous to the nth degree, and dogs because they're impudent, and impertinent, and are proud of their sins. Everybody in the world knows you can't go to heaven without repenting of your sins.

And everybody in the world knows you can't repent of something that you're proud of. It's an axiomatic matter of fact. You're proud of your sin. These are the only preachers in God Almighty's universe that brag about their sin! You never heard of an adulterous pride parade. You never heard of a bank robber's pride parade, even a pedophile pride parade. It's unthinkable! They're proud of their sins!
Jeremiah 6:15 says, were they ashamed when they had committed these abominations? Nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush. Therefore they shall fall with them that fall, referring to the final sentence of condemnation from God almighty, consigning these creatures to the fires of hell.

And the dog, set forth in Deuteronomy 23:17, there shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. And thou shall not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, a sodomite, into the house of the Lord thy God. Dogs, sodomites, it is expressly said in the great messianic psalm 22, crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.

Everybody knows that Caesar, who was in charge when John the Baptist got his head cut off -- Tiberius Caesar -- and who was in charge when they crucified the Lord Jesus. And when Pilate would have let him go, and the Jews said, if you let him go, you're not Caesar's friend, and he's living over there on the isle of Capri in the beautiful harbor of Naples, chucking wave after wave of sodomites out so that he might have sex with them, and his specialty being little boys. Historical fact.

Psalm 22:16: The dogs compass me about. They pierced my hands and my feet. And three verses down the Lord Jesus, prophetically in that psalm says, deliver my soul from the sword and my darling from the power of the dog. And the Lord Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, give not that which is holy to the dogs. You know he said that. You tell sodomites that God loves them, and I say you're giving that which is holy to the dogs. And the Lord Jesus Christ never died for a dog or a hog or a pig. He died for sheep, and metaphors and similitudes have powerful sway when God almighty says I will teach my people through the prophets, by the use of similitudes.

Philippians 3:2 said beware of dogs, and when you come to the end of the book of God, chapter 22 of Revelation, talking about the glories of heaven, and blessed is he who keeps his commandments, or rather does, blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to enter into the city through the gate. Verse 15, but without, outside the city, no hope of going to heaven, are six categories of people, and the first category is the sodomites, the dogs.
Now the Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 17, talking about this weighty matter, said as it was as in the days of Lott, they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted it, they builded. A brief, six-clause description of a vibrant, prosperous, thriving society of people. They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded. But the same day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from God out of heaven and destroyed them all, and even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

That is a situation obtains. Next verse, the second to shortest verse in the English Bible. Remember Lot's wife. Remember Lot's wife. Jonathan Edwards has a great sermon on that also, and I recommend "The End of the Wicked as Contemplated by the Righteous." If you want to know what all the preachers were preaching in this country in the 1600s and the 1700s and the 1800s, I recommend that you pluck down off the web JonathanEdwards.com. I recommend that you go to any Bible bookstore and get The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther.

And oft times in chapel, when the old Dr. Bob Jones would be speaking, oft times he would say, what this country needs is 50 Jonathan Edwardses turned loose in it. There's a book out of his sayings, the sayings of Dr. Bob Jones, Sr. It's got that one in it. What this country needs is 50 Jonathan Edwardses turned loose in it.

Just immediately prior to the Savior saying as it was in the days of Lot, and the question turns, naturally, did God love those people as the fire and brimstone was coming down on them or not? He's got a very peculiar way of showing it, wouldn't you say? Sixteen billion people on this earth, if you credit the prevailing authority, Professor Ray Winkle for it, 16 billion people lived in this world in the days of Noah, and Noah, by faith, moved with fear and warned of God, of things not seen as yet. Prepared and are to the saving of his house, by which, also he condemned the world and became an heir of that righteousness which is by faith alone. Preached for 120 years and nobody was persuaded. You know that's so. You know that nobody was persuaded.
God says, it's time to get on the ark, the flood's coming, and nobody but his wife and his three boys and their three wives were persuaded! God's not running out of room in hell, and it made no particular difference in this grand sweep of eternity. Did God love those 16 billion people that he destroyed in a fortnight? And have they now been suffering in hell for 4,653 years, take a year or two? Suffering in hell and never to be pardoned? Never to be turned loose?
Any man worships this beast, or his image, or receive this mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture in the cup of his indignation. And they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day nor night. Does God love those people who he says are tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb, all the while he's tormenting them exquisitely? Fire and brimstone? Does he love those people? He's got a very peculiar way of showing it, wouldn't you say?

Compared, especially to this other group of people, the great multitude that no man could number, from every nation, kindred tongue, and tribe. Clothed in white raiment and palms in their hands, and he that spake to me said, who are these, and I said unto him, sir thou knowest. He said these are they that came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb, and therefore are they before the throne of God day and night and serve him in his temple, and he that sitteth in the midst of the throne said, dwell among them. The Lord Jesus Christ will feed them and lead them under living fountains of waters and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. New bodies classified with four distinct characteristics: beauty, agility, impassibility, the word means you can never know pain again, or sorrow, impassibility, and spiritual, spiritual bodies with enormous strength and alacrity.

That's something of the glories of heaven, set over against a stark reality and over those who are suffering in hell. And you're trying to tell me or anybody with a modicum of brains in his head that God loves them the same? Very peculiar way of showing it.

And just before saying as it was in the days of Lot, the Lord Jesus Christ says as it was in the days of Noah. Now when Ham, Noah's son, and his youngest grandson Canaan had some kind of homosexual relationship with the drunken Noah, and you read about it in Genesis chapter 9, verses 22, 23, 24, and when Noah awoke and knew, and knew, what his younger son had done unto him, the old rabbis and the ancient expositors of that place say that Ham taught people to live as they did before the flood. To have sex with mothers and daughters, males with males, women with women, and with animals, as they lived as they were before the flood.

Throws a lot of light on Genesis 6 where it says the Lord God says, I've had enough of these people. They have deeply corrupted themselves, I'm going to annihilate, annihilate, the whole race. They lived as they were before the flood. Sodomites, my friends. Homosexuals, if you please, my friends. Sex with mothers and with daughters, and incest, that same place in Leviticus 18 that says thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind, it's abomination, also says, next verse, neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself there with. Two verses up, it proscribes incest, bestiality, homosexuality, incest, those heinous crimes that do something and stamp and mark the soul as being one who is abhorred of God. Second Peter 2 where it talks about Lot and the destruction of ancient Sodom and then says, he delivered just Lot, and the Lord knows how to deliver the righteous. Out of testing, out of temptations. And the Lord knows how to reserve or preserve the unrighteous, these that he has just described as vexing Lot's righteous soul day by day, knows how to preserve the unrighteous. That word means pickle, it's the notion of how we put up preserves. It means pickle them in their sins. They hated God, they despised God, they manifested how filthy they were, living like dogs on this earth, living like animals such that Peter describes them in Second Peter 2:12 as natural, brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed.
And talks about their filthy sex habits in verse 22. It has happened unto them according to the true proverb. The dog has returned to his vomit again, and the sow that was washed to a wallowing in the mire. A description by the Lord God almighty using similitudes, of the filthy habits and lies of these creatures of whom it is said that God hates them as it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What are you going to do with that? Romans 9:13, as it is written. That the purposes of God according to election might stand, it is said, before either of the children were born, twins, in the mother Rebecca's womb, neither having done good or evil. That the purpose of God according to election might stand. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated. How are you going to mangle that verse, brother? Why will you not be content to listen to the brightest and best of all the gospel preachers for the last 2,000 years preaching it this way?

That there's such a thing as the wrath of God, that there's such a thing as a hatred of God, that there's such a thing as hell. And those who insist on living depraved, degenerate lives in this world, who die in their sins, split hell wide open, I say to you. And it's mere folly and sophistry, and what the old preachers called sophism. Playing on words. Creating new doctrines called doctrines of devils. Doctrines of devils, that God loves the sinner. What are you talking about, that God loves the sinner and only hates his sin? What do you mean that God doesn't hate these creatures, and how would you describe that attribute of the almighty? The almighty God comes and says to the sons of men, I have loved the righteous, I have hated the wicked. I have prepared a place for those who live soberly and righteously and godly in this present time. And who are penitent, and who have abandoned. That the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation and teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lust we should live soberly, and righteously, and godly in this present world, looking for the blessed hope and glories appearing.

These vain, proud, arrogant beasts calling themselves homosexuals and gays nowadays have not the least interest in repenting of their sins. Indeed, they laugh at you if you suggest it to them, and they insist that it's not a sin. Yes, God hates homosexuals.

Opening Statement by John Rankin

Good afternoon. In my comments, I will read a paper I have written for the occasion, an exception for me, but there is much to cover in little time.

The definitive question is this: Does love define hate, or does hate define love? To define something means that the one giving definition is greater and prior to what is defined. It means that what is defined cannot exist otherwise.

In 1 John 4, the apostle says:

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love" (v.8).

Jesus sums up the greatest commandments as loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and thus, to love our neighbors as ourselves.

John says that by definition, God is love. And Jesus says that our neighbors include our enemies. Is there any definitive statement in the Bible that says God is hate? No. Therefore, it is God's nature as love that defines any language of hate.

www.godhatesfags.com starts with hate, not love. Therefore hate is its defining identity, implying that this is where God's identity begins - contrary to Scripture.

The Bible is the story of creation, sin and redemption, as defined in Genesis 1-3. The order of creation is good, sin reverses and breaks that order, and redemption reverses the reversal and restores the goodness. The word Gospel means to "announce good news," and is rooted in Genesis 1-2. The God of creation is greater than space, time and number, and he is entirely good. Pagan religions all start with an assumption of destruction at the outset. But how can something be destroyed unless it has first been created? This leads to a second question: Does creation define destruction, or does destruction define creation?

www.godhatesfags.com starts with a statement of destruction, not creation.

C.S. Lewis speaks of "the good infection" of the Gospel, rooted in the parable of Matthew 13:33. What infects what? Does love infect and poison the power of hate? Or vice versa? Do we, in the ministry of the Gospel, infect the world with the Good News, or do we infect it with the bad news of hate versus hate? In Romans 12, Paul shows how it is that love defines hate. He says:

"Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good" (v.9).

Thereafter, Paul shows how to hate evil with the power of love:

"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge: I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" (vv. 17-21).

How is it possible for www.godhatesfags.com to obey this Scripture, to do what is right in the eyes of everybody, to live at peace with everyone, or to show love to its enemies? Is it not defeated already, being overcome by evil?

Where does biblical preaching start? Is it with creation, sin or redemption? If we start with redemption, and do not define the depths and consequences of sin, we give false comfort. If we start with sin, and seek to scare the hell out of people, then we give false warning, for no prior goodness has been defined. We must start with the order of creation, so that as the height of its goodness is grasped, the depth of the fall can be understood, and the hope of redemption's height can be embraced. When Paul addressed the pagan philosophers of Athens in Acts 17, he started with the order of creation, not with its reversal. Thus a third question: Does hope define fear, or does fear define hope?

www.godhatesfags.com starts with the preaching of sin, not with the order of creation; with fear, not hope.

The goodness of the Gospel can be summed up in six ethical components. The word "ethics" refers to how we relate to each other. This is the love of God and one another.

The first ethic is the power to give.

Yahweh Elohim, the sovereign and good God of creation, gives man and woman stewardship over his good creation. The power to give is the definition of goodness and love. Love is goodness given, even if rejected. Forced love is rape, and therefore not love.

There are only two choices in life: Give and it shall be given, or take before you are taken. To take from others is to rob their humanity, an act of destruction. One of Satan's names is the "destroyer." Therefore, we can pose a fourth question: Does God define Satan, or does Satan define God? The corollary, and therefore fifth question, is: Does giving define taking, or does taking define giving? If Satan defines the terms, then the universe implodes automatically, and could never have existed to begin with.

www.godhatesfags.com allows Satan to define the terms; it starts with the power to take and destroy the humanity in hurting or even rebellious people, and not with the power to give.

In the order of creation, Yahweh Elohim initiates the power to give, and teaches Adam and Eve to receive and give to each other this goodness, then to give back to God in worship. This power to give and receive equals the basis for trust, for God is trustworthy in his goodness. The man and woman in covenantal marriage are thus free forever to trust each other, the basis for a healthy society. Man and woman are equals and complements, giving to and receiving from one another spiritually, physically, sexually and emotionally. Sexual promiscuity and homosexuality are based on taking from someone you cannot trust fully, and this short circuits the human soul. And homosexuality is without complementarity. Thus we can pose a sixth question: Does trust define distrust, or does distrust define trust?

www.godhatesfags.com starts with a war of distrust, being without the courage or power to invest trust in broken people's lives, as Jesus did in John 4 with the woman at the well.

The second ethic is the power to live in the light.

The prologue to John's gospel says:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it" (vv. 1-5).

The power to live in the light means the freedom to have nothing to hide from, and with full accountability to God and one another. Thus, a seventh question: Does light define darkness, or does darkness define light? By definition, in physics, ethics and spiritual domains, darkness flees the presence of light. In John 3:19, Jesus says that men loved darkness instead of light, because they knew their deeds were evil. Darkness cannot understand or overcome the light. Jesus is the Light of the world, and Satan is the prince of darkness. To hate hatred with hate is to put no trust in the Light, and it is to be swallowed up by the darkness. To hate hatred with love allows the light of God's presence to drive the darkness away.

Jesus, as the incarnate Word, comes to sinful humanity and relates to our brokenness in terms we can understand, and reveals the truth as light by definition disperses the darkness. In philosophy there is a concept called "the metaethics of language." This means that it is not so much important that we understand what we mean to say, but that our hearers understand what we mean - especially those who oppose us.

www.godhatesfags.com lives in the darkness, is not accountable to the wider church, and fails to communicate and reveal the truth.

The third ethic is the power of informed choice.

The first words in the Bible are words of God's sovereignty, and the first words to Adam from Yahweh are words of freedom. God's sovereignty defines and provides for human freedom. This is the power of informed choice, as Yahweh defines for Adam and Eve the terms of good and evil, and the power to choose between the two. Here is an eighth question: Does good define evil, or does evil define good?

God is free, and his freedom is the power to do the good. Adam and Eve, made in his image, were given the same freedom. God, himself not a slave, did not create man and woman as slaves. If God forced them into his will, he would not be good. Men and women would not be image-bearers of God, and would be no more than puppets, robots or animals. Thus, we have a ninth question: Does freedom define slavery, or does slavery define freedom?

This God-given freedom is polluted by sin, but Yahweh still respects the freedom of man and woman to accept or reject his grace. Sinful man has no power to save himself, or reach up to God. But God reaches down to us and provides the gift of salvation, if we will accept it. The Holy Spirit is the One who mediates this possibility. This reality of assumed freedom is seen when Yahweh first confronts Cain (Genesis 4:6-7), in the final words of Moses (cf. Deuteronomy 11-20), in the final public words of Joshua (cf. Joshua 24:14-24), in the Bible's shortest sermon, given by Elijah (cf. 1 Kings 18:21); in the invitation of Jesus (Matthew 11:28-30), in key words of Paul (cf. Galatians 5:1), and in the final invitation in the book of Revelation (cf. 22:17).

www.godhatesfags.com says that free will is a lie, that people have no ultimate choice between heaven and hell; accordingly it means that people are slaves, and thus God is a slave-master like a pagan deity, which means that God is first a slave to his own lack of freedom, and therefore not sovereign.

The fourth ethic is the power to love hard questions.

All through the Bible, God is hospitable to our toughest questions. Jesus asked far more questions than he gave answers, for we cannot possess an answer until first we embrace the question. Here is a tenth question: Do questions define answers, or do answers define questions?

There are many salient hard question here, such as the moral nature of hell, whether God still loves those who choose hell, predestination, and the nature of a biblical theocracy. We can thus pose an eleventh question: Does heaven define hell, or does hell define heaven?

www.godhatesfags.com defines questions by presuppositional doctrinal grids with ready-made answers, thus censoring honest questions; and spends primary energy describing hell.

The fifth ethic is the power to love enemies.

Here is a twelfth question: Does friendship define enemies, or do enemies define friendship? There is a well known Arab proverb: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." But after the mutual enemy is vanquished, the new friendship resorts back to enemy status. If the sharing of a mutual enemy is the basis for friendship, hate will triumph over love.

The height of the sermon on the Mount is where Jesus says that perfection is the power to love enemies. Are we more concerned with perfect doctrine in the abstract, or in obeying Jesus in the concrete? Paul also says, in Romans 5, that Christ died for us when we were still his enemies (vv. 8-10). How can we but love those who are still his enemies? Paul says in Romans 12:

"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse" (v. 14).

This leads to a thirteenth question: Do blessings define curses, or do curses define blessings?

Proverbs 15:1 says:

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

www.godhatesfags.com defines enemies as its basis for whom it accepts as friends; it curses enemies and in its reaction to certain militant homosexuals, it mocks Proverbs 15.

The sixth ethic is the power to forgive.

After Jesus taught us the Lord's Prayer, he said:

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins" (Matthew 6:14-15).

The power to forgive is the power to give in the face of the violation of human sin. Those who do not desire forgiveness for others mock the forgiveness they may have received, and are happier in hell where they can stew in their bitter and self-righteous juices.

In Luke 7, Jesus says of the woman sinner, "Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven - for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little" (v. 47).

In James 2, the apostle says:

"Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will we shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (vv. 12-13).

Thus, a fourteenth question: Does mercy define judgment, or does judgment define mercy?

www.godhatesfags.com allows judgment to trump mercy; in so doing, the question may be asked: Do its sponsors know the God of mercy, or do they only know a god of merciless pettiness - like a Zeus?

In 1988 at Harvard, three women classmates once approached me during lunch. They said they were lesbian, and that every lesbian they knew had been physically, sexually or emotionally abused as girls. When I heard this, I prayed in my spirit, "Dear God above, does the church know this testimony, or do we just condemn?"

Now, speaking as a man, a husband and father, I ask any father here today: How would you respond if you learned years later that your daughter had been so abused, and thus turned to lesbianism out of the fear of men? Would you look at her, and say, "God hates you, you dirty hell-bound faggot?" Or would you wrap your arms around her in protective love and seek to minister to her wounded soul? How much more does our heavenly Father love all his children, the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve.

Isaiah 42 speaks of the Messiah:

"He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out" (vv. 2-3).

This is the language of binding up the broken hearted, of protecting the last flicker of hope in a wounded soul from the violent winds of adversity, cupping the hands around the wick and gently breathing the smolder back into a bright flame.

The Messiah himself says in Matthew 11:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light" (vv. 28-30).

Can we imagine how www.godhatesfags.com might counsel the father in speaking to his daughter? Would it be to call her a hell-bound faggot? Can we imagine walking in the light of Isaiah 42? Or, in its chosen language with raised voice, would it break the bruised reed, quench the smoldering wick, and in fact, would it oppose Jesus in his Messianic fulfillment of this prophecy?

In 1996 I addressed a packed forum at Yale Divinity School, where much of the audience was homosexual, and most others were thus sympathetic. Yet they all agreed that the Bible on its own terms is defined by the doctrines of creation, sin and redemption in Genesis 1-3. So I asked: Where in the order of creation is homosexuality found? No evidence could be provided. After a break for refreshments, several ex-homosexuals from New York City gave their testimonies of conversion and lasting change through Jesus.

In the ten days following, the two student evangelical leaders who organized the forum were approached by as many as 20 avowed homosexuals. These homosexuals all posed the same question, "How can I change?" Jesus came to seek and save the lost. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 testifies to the possibility for homosexuals, and all sinners, to be transformed by the grace of God.

Would any homosexual student at Yale seek out www.godhatesfags.com for a listening ear?

Therefore, love defines hate, but for www.godhatesfags.com hate defines love and accordingly reverses the biblical order of creation. The same is true as www.godhatesfags.com allows destruction to define creation, fear to define hope, Satan to define God, taking to define giving, distrust to define trust, darkness to define light, evil to define good, slavery to define freedom, answers to define questions, hell to define heaven, enemies to define friendship, curses to define blessings, and judgment to define mercy.

The "gospel" of www.godhatesfags.com is bad news, not the Good News of the Messiah. It is reactive in its insecurity, not proactive in confidence. It is indeed pagan in its ethics.

The true Gospel calls all people to repentance, based on the love of God for all sinners, homosexual or otherwise, and based on the evidence that God is good. The evil which God hates is rooted in his prior and defining love for us, that we may be set free from its tyranny.

God gives all of us the unalienable rights to life, liberty and property -- and those of us who are biblical will show that respect to all people equally, and protected by law. This is true for homosexuals as it is for anyone.

Once, a lesbian activist in California tried to incite me to anger. Instead, I told her that if ever her life were in danger, I would not hesitate to risk my life to protect hers. Why? Because that is what Jesus has done for me.

Thank you.

Dialog

Fred Phelps: What I got from that speech, I take it, was a challenge, and I accept the challenge, and I put it in the form of a question that will go for all of those dichotomies that you put. Kind of boring, but I paid attention as much as I could. Read it all, did you?

John Rankin: That way I didn't go over my time limit.

Fred: Did God -- I refer you to Malachi for this question. Is it my time to put a question to Brother Rankin?

Moderator: Yes. This is your second question, though, you asked him if he wrote it, first.

Fred: Oh, well he goes now?

Moderator: No, I'm just kidding. Go ahead.

Fred: I refer you to Malachi 1, verses one, two, and three. I've got it here for you if you don't know that by heart.

John: You can go ahead, I know it.

Fred: Do you know it by heart?

John: In terms of I have loved Jacob and I've hated Esau.

Fred: Let's hear it by heart.

John: Oh, I won't go by that. You can read it if you want to.

Fred: All right, I'll tell you, here's the question. "The burden of word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau . . ." You say that you can't define love by hate. And the rest of those dichotomies fit this same pattern, so I'm putting it to you as a synecdoche, a part put for the whole, how do you explain Malachi 1, one, two, and three, which specifically defines love by saying you don't understand God's love until you understand God's hate? There's the verses. You don't know 'em by heart.

John: I haven't memorized it, I know the content, and you can challenge my content. And so I'll ask you about the larger content. Would you agree...?

Fred: You ask me?! I've asked you the question.

John: Oh, absolutely. And I'm answering you with a rhetorical question that will give you my answer.

Fred: You threw it out in a pejorative way that it was wrong to define love by hate.

John: I agree.

Fred: You did that. I'm suggesting to you that that's exactly what God almighty did in Malachi 1, one, two, three. And I'm submitting to you that God says you cannot understand love. Your notions of love will be perverted, and as Luther said to Erasmus, your thoughts of God are too human unless you're willing to admit, that in this instance, God says I can't define love for you, in response to a direct question by you, without defining it by hate. You understand how much God loves you when you look at those souls suffering in hell and he didn't send you there. That's the message of the gospel, and the good news is that God's not sending the whole human race to hell. He should do it.

John: Let me try again to answer the question. Jesus answered many questions with questions, and if you'd listened carefully, you would have seen I was giving you a rhetorical question that would give you an answer. I'll try it again. Would we agree, and if after my answer you don't, please let me know, would we agree that the entire Bible is defined by the doctrines of creation, sin, and redemption?

Fred: Of course not. What that is, is pure -- nobody in the world knows what you said, what this is, is perverse, disputing,...

John: You mean sin came before creation?

Fred: Perverse disputings by men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth. You're filibustering. You don't answer a simple question. Did not God define love by hate in Malachi 1, one to three? And if he didn't, expound those verses!

John: Well, I'll expound them for you once again. This happens long after the history of sin. And it's God's love that made us in his image that once we've sinned, draws us in redemption. So my question for you is this: Why did he hate Esau? Because Esau hated God, and despised his blessings. And God said in Genesis....

Fred: That's what you say he hated Esau for. Unfortunately, that's not what God said he hated Esau for, and you know that very well. Now you don't agree with those verses in Romans 9, the whole chapter, and Romans 11.

John Rankin: Oh, absolutely.

Fred: No, you don't agree with them, but you must not mischaracterize them and say that God said that. Brother Rankin said that, God said the opposite, neither having done good or evil, both still in their mother's womb, it is said, Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated, that the purpose of God, according to election might stand.

John: Okay, now I'll try to answer your question again, simply. And the reason I raised the rhetorical question is because this is an interpretative question that is consistent. You said you don't believe the Bible is defined by creation, sin, and redemption.

Fred: You're filibustering! This is a simple question!

John: Just a minute, please, I'm giving you a simple answer, and it comes from the basis of the Bible.

Fred: Did God define love by hate?

John: No.

Fred: Did he not say you will never understand my love, as it is, not some romantic nonsense that you've concocted and written 25 minutes worth of tripe about, but if you would understand my love as it is, you must understand my hatred as it is.

John: And do you know what you're saying?

Fred: I'm saying what Malachi's saying.

John: You're saying that sin existed before creation. You see the Bible starts with a good God. Is there any destruction or evil in God's nature? Does the Bible start in Malachi or Genesis?

Fred: Did they teach you these debating tricks to avoid answering a plain question?

John: No, I'm asking an honest question, and you're the one who's shooting from the hip.

Fred: And furthermore, if you claim to have been called to preach, you jumped right over Isaiah 58:1, cry loud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression and show the house of Jacob their sin. The word "show" means get in their faces and make it crystal clear what their miserable, hell-bound sin is. And then when I do that, you say he's preaching hate.

John: Wait a minute, just a second. Transgressions, Isaiah 58, and did transgressions exist before or after God's creation?

Fred: Wholly irrelevant to the point.

John: No, it shows that you take the Bible in your image and not in its own image.

Fred: And you said you most certainly did not like ad hominem tricks in debate. "Ad hominem" means you ignore the issue and pillory your opponent personally, that's what you did.

John: Have I pilloried you personally?

Fred: That's what you did for 25 minutes, and you have not come within 150 country miles of addressing the only issue in front of us: Does God hate homosexuals? You said no, and you never did expound on that point.

John: Oh, yes, I did. And you know, I didn't do it by attacking you with one thing. I only asked questions. All the questions were open-ended. And see what happens is....

Fred: Do you have a question for me? I've given up, you're never going to answer mine.

John: Well, I will give you two quick questions.

Fred: Let's take them one at a time.

John: They're both so quick. The first observation is that you've confirmed my diagnosis, you start with sin and not creation.

Fred: That's not a question. Ask a question.

John: You quoted before you asked me the question, so I'll continue. You started in Romans 1:16, you didn't start with the order of creation and God's goodness in Paul's letter to the Romans. And this shows that you start with sin and not creation. Also, you misquoted....

Fred: Perverse disputings by men of corrupt minds, destitute of the truth, that very well defines you.

John: Questions are terrorizing to you, my good friend. In Romans 1:30, you also misquoted the text, you said that the people were hated of God. The Greek says it was people who hated God.

Fred: And that shows your abysmal ignorance of the text.

John: That's not true.

Fred: Take any expositor ...

John: I've translated it from the Greek.

Fred: ... from the days of Augustine to now, and it is the hated of God in Romans 1:30.

John: It is the God-haters in the Greek. Now here's my question for you.

Fred: Then you agree that homosexuals are haters of God?

John: And many other people, oh, absolutely.

Fred: You agree that homosexuals are haters of God.

John: Not all, but many.

Fred: And you certainly don't believe that anybody's in heaven hating God, do you?

John: I absolutely agree with you on that one.

Fred: What?

John: I agree, no one can be in heaven if they hate God.

Fred: Thank you.

John: And no one can be in heaven....

Fred: But then they're in hell.

John: They would be in hell.

Fred: Yeah. The haters of God are in hell.

John: And we'll get to the moral nature of hell, but I want to ask you a very simple question. I know Luther, I know Edwards, I've read some of their material, here's my question for you.

Fred: No, you haven't! You've never read Bondage of the Will, and you told me on the telephone you never read it!

John: Yes, I did, you've got a memory lapse. I read it in college. And I didn't tell you that. I'll continue. Does the Bible define Luther, or does Luther define the Bible?

Fred: What a ridiculous question. I'll answer it this way. The Bible defines gospel preachers as those who hew the axe to the root of the trees and expound the doctrine of depravity, human depravity, and preach on sin and transgression, and make it sparkle and shine until the sinner is reduced to penitence.

John: Where did depravity begin?

Fred: You must preach on sin, and the wages of sin, and the certainty of going to hell and spending eternity there, unless you repent. Now if you're not preaching that, you're not preaching the gospel.

John: Where did sin begin?

Fred: Awwh, come on.

John: In other words, you don't want terms to be defined accurately or biblically?

Fred: You know the verse that applies here? I recommend that you type it up on a three-by-five card.

John: Every verse comes from Genesis on forward.

Fred: Put it on your mirror so you can read it every morning, it is Second Timothy 2:23. Foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do but gender strife or wrangling, and the servant of the Lord must not wrangle; but be gentle. You've got to be gentle if you're dealing with subjects like this...

John: And you're gentle? [audience laughter]

Fred: ...apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will grant them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him to do his will. That verse, that passage defines you, Brother Rankin.

John: Well, okay, let me read a passage, then. You have pointed out that the Bible says that homosexuality, in Leviticus 18, is an abomination. It says that about a lot of other things as well. The Hebrew words, shaqatz and toevah mean something that is detestable. Let me read to you Proverbs 6:16 through 19. You like the word "hate," so I will quote one here. "There are six things that Yahweh hates, seven things that are detestable to him." And the scholars will tell you that the seventh thing is the most important thing being criticized. One, haughty eyes; two, a lying tongue; three, hands that shed innocent blood; four, a heart that devises wicked schemes; five, feet that are quick to rush into evil; six, a false witness who pours out lies; and seven, the most important one, a man who stirs up dissension among brothers. So you've talked about the abomination of various sins, and the Bible talks about them. And you, I've seen nothing but stir up dissension. I ask you honest questions about the very Bible you say you trust in.

Fred: You have a question in there somewhere?

John: My question is, are you not stirring up dissension?

Fred: You've been talking for three or four minutes on that one point. What's the question?

John: Tell me something, are you stirring up dissension?

Fred: Look, I'll tell you what I'm doing, I'm glad you asked that, I'll tell you exactly what I'm doing. September 8, 1947, when those old Southern Baptist preachers laid their hands on my head, they delivered what's called an ordination charge. And they delivered me that charge out of Isaiah 58:1, Ezekiel 16:2, and Second Timothy 4:1 & 2. I charge thee before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing in his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lust shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and having turned away their ears from the truth, they shall be turned unto fables. Ezekiel 16:2. Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations. Son of man, cause America to know her abominations. Isaiah 58:1. Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression. That means get in their faces and make it crystal clear what their sin is. Now that's my job. Now you might not like that, but that's my job description, and that's my commission from God almighty, and for the last 55 years, from that September 8, 1947, down to this present hour, that's what I'm doing, showing my people, the people of America, what the transgression is. That's singular there. It means some dominant sin is destroying the nation. Did you never preach, my friend, on that simple, short little verse: Remember Lot's wife? She wasn't a practicing homosexual, but she had it in her heart, because that was her hometown, that it couldn't really be so bad. That surely God is not destroying every living thing in this town, my loved ones, my kinfolks, my friends, my neighbors, she could not help but look back. But that defined her and that defines this country that has given over the notion that it's okay to be gay, that somehow or another it's all right. That somehow or another it's no really big deal, that they've accepted with respect and acceptability, societal respectability. That, in my opinion, is the transgression of modern America. How do you cause a nation to know her abominations? Son of man, cause America to know her abominations. This maudlin kissy-poo stuff that you call the love of God is nothing but a satanic lie and won't help anybody do anything. And I'll tell you another thing about love, now that you ask me. Leviticus 18 denounces homosexuality and some other sins, you agree with that.

John: Right.

Fred: Leviticus 20 pronounces a death penalty upon such. Tucked in between Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20 is a verse that you thought began in the New Testament, where the Lord Jesus says you shall love thy neighbor as thyself.

John: I did think that?

Fred: Yes, you thought that.

John: Boy, you are quite omniscient.

Fred: Oh, you thought that, you give it away at every turn, you think the Old Testament is nothing, blah, blah. I'm telling you that "Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself" is found at Leviticus 19, verse 18. And it says, the way you love your neighbor as yourself is to preach to him about his sins and not let him go on in the notion that he can live this way and go to heaven. That's the love of God.

John: And I don't give the notion, and what I find funny, you think I say the Old Testament is nothing.

Fred: Yes. You treat it as such.

John: Oh, I treat it as such. So I ask you to go to back to the beginning of the Old Testament, and you say that's a canard of a question. You don't go back to where the love of God starts. You start with sin. You don't start with the order of creation. Let me ask you another question.

Fred: Now wait, isn't it my time?

Moderator: Yeah, it is his turn.

John: That was a long answer, then.

Fred: I've been waiting for this a long time, Brother Rankin. I'm glad to see you, sir. And you got a hint that this was coming, so don't claim surprise or ambush. Does God love those people in hell now or not?

John: The only way you can answer that....

Fred: I want a yes or no.

John: The answer is he loves everyone, even those who choose hell, and yes, in hell they are loved. Do you know why?

Fred: [laughter]

John: Because of the nature of God's love that you haven't touched yet. What is the nature of God's love? He made us in God's image. And when he made us in God's image, he gave us the freedom to accept or reject that love. Now had he forced us to accept that love, we would not be image-bearers of God.

Fred: Is that a yes?

John: Excuse me, I'm answering now.

Fred: Is that a yes?

John: I answered you. I said yes, and I'm explaining to you.

Fred: Look, do we have to put up with these objections from the floor about this loudmouth right here?

Moderator: Let the questions flow, as far as I can see, you answered his question, and then you asked him another question, which is what is the nature of God's love, and that's where we are.

John: Okay, since he doesn't like questions, I'll give him an answer.

Fred: No, you can't change the rules.

John: I am doing a classic designed rhetorical question. Paul does it all the time, he asks a question, then he answers it as a teaching mechanism. If you don't like me asking a question, then I will give you answer. You asked me, does God love those who are in hell. I will say yes, and I will give you the answer why. The reason why....

Fred: That yes is enough. That yes has given you away as a number one heretic.

John: Well see, here's your problem, you will not listen to the answer.

Fred: And absolutely without any ability to follow a point to a logical conclusion.

John: You will talk on and on and you won't let me -- logic, you won't listen to logic! You start with sin and not creation.

Fred: You tell me that God loves the people he's punishing in hell for the last 6,000 years, and I'll tell you, you don't know the meaning of the word logic.

John: Okay, let's do some logic. I asked you earlier about the logic, does creation precede sin, and you couldn't abide by that logic. Because if sin comes before creation, destruction comes before creation, and Satan is God. That's logic, and you wouldn't touch it. Now I will tell you the logic of which I'm referring to. In the order of creation, God makes us male and female. He gives us the freedom to accept or reject that love, those are the first words in Genesis 2, in human history. Please don't interrupt!

Fred: So if you reject the love, then he gives you his hate?

John: If you reject the love, he loves you enough to take that rejection.

Fred: To send you to hell.

John: Absolutely.

Fred: And so is that then hate?

John: Love defines hate, hate doesn't define love.

Fred: Is that then hate? He says, if you don't accept what I'm offering, I'm going to hate you?

John: The love of God defines all. The Bible says God is love, therefore anything where he hates wickedness, it's because he hates how it destroys his image-bearers of God. Therefore it says that men love darkness instead of light, John 3:19, Jesus' words, because they knew their deeds were evil.

Fred: Where is that?

John: That's John 3:19. So if you will look all the way through the Bible you will see the metaphors of hell are self-chosen destinations. People are happier in stewing in their bitternesses than in forgiveness of God's kingdom.
Therefore, to complete answering your question, God loves us enough to let us choose hell. And since the Bible says that God is love -- let me finish, please, sir!

Fred: So he doesn't want us to go to heaven?

John: No, he says he desires all men to be saved, First Timothy 2:4, but he doesn't force his love on us. Because forced love is rape. So when you're out there forcing hate on people, you are spiritually raping them, you are not showing them the love of God that he said, "Come unto me."

Fred: So people in hell are experiencing God's love?

John: They are experiencing the freedom of the one whom God gave them to love, to love darkness more than light.

Fred: You believe they're being tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the presence of the lamb, do you?

John: I'll ask you a rhetorical question, and then I'll answer you.

Fred: Do you believe that verse?

John: I believe all the verses of the Bible, but I want to ask you something.

Fred: They're being tormented with fire and brimstone....

John: Hell, the Bible says, is fire and darkness. How did that go together...

Fred: No, the Bible says it's torment with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels....

John: It also says it's outer darkness.

Fred: ...in the presence of the holy angels and the presence of the lamb.

John: It also says it's outer darkness.

Fred: And that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever.

John: You're right, but it also says it's outer darkness.

Fred: And that they have no rest, day or night, gnawing their tongues with pain and blaspheming God.

John: Is it also outer darkness, in Jesus' words?

Fred: And that too.

John: So how did darkness and fire go together?

Fred: And you say that that is evidence of the love of God?

John: I asked you a question.

Fred: He loves those people?

John: Talk about not answering questions. How does fire and darkness go together?

Fred: And I'll tell you the answer to that. It's found in Second Thessalonians chapter one, where it is said plainly, to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven in flaming fire, with all his mighty angels, did you read about that verse?

John: That's not the fire of hell.

Fred: All his mighty angels, to punish them with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power. That's the answer to that question.

John: Can fire and darkness exist side by side?

Fred: The Lord Jesus Christ is personally administering the punishment, in the presence of the holy angels.

John: What you will find, all the way through scripture, and this is a question of sovereignty. God is sovereign, he loves us enough to say no. No one is ever judged in the Bible apart from deeds they chose to do. God takes sovereign accountability for having given them that freedom to say yes or no to his love, and therefore his love is operative in letting them choose darkness. So when they're in darkness, they would rather be in darkness, in the weeping and gnashing of teeth, stewing in their self-bitter, vengeful, unforgiving nature, because they don't want to trust the goodness of God, and they would rather love being in hell than love being in heaven.

Fred: And the old preachers called all that mass of nonsense you just spat out a paralogism. It means an argument that comes...

John: From the Bible.

Fred: ...with the falsity in its teeth, the lie in its teeth as it comes, so that no rational person would believe it.

Moderator: We've got two minutes left in this session.

John: One final, simple question. Fred, what are the influences in your life that have led you to believe, speak, and act as you do?

Fred: Are you trying to hurt the feelings of my thirteen children?

John: I asked you an honest question. You can ask the same question of me.

Fred: Are you trying to get personal?

John: In an honest way, yes.

Fred: That's what "ad hominim" means, but I'm glad to answer it for you. The influences in my life that have caused me to preach this gospel without any fear of ambiguity and without any fear of timidity. To cry aloud, and spare not, and lift up my voice like a trumpet, and show my people, the people of America living in my generation, their transgression. To get in their face and make it crystal clear what their sin is, the one that is taking them to hell? The influence that's caused me to do that is this blessed word of God operating in, and by, and through the holy spirit of God.
And I've got to say to you, sir, that there are doctrines of devils, and that there are perverse disputers by men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who are like Balaam. And I laid that all out for you, who pervert the word of God out of Jeremiah, who corrupt the word of God out of Second Corinthians, and who twist or wrest the word of God to their own destruction, out of Second Peter chapter three. And it makes me feel deep-down bad for you, but that's the way you are, headed for hell, Brother Rankin. Have fun, because you say that means God loves you.

John: And yet you -- well, I won't rejoin in kind.

Fred: You asked the question and I answered it, you asked what influenced me.

John: But in truth you didn't answer.

Fred: You asked what influences me to preach and do as I do, that's what influences me.

John: You know what I was actually asking?

Fred: And furthermore, that's the only genuine love, I told you, Leviticus 19. Read it. Read the Bible once in a while, I recommend it to you.